Go for No with Authenticity

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Start your week smiling with your friends. Kathy's aunt and Michelle Frechette. It's time to get ready for some weekly motivation with WP motivate. Happy Friday, Cathy. [00:00:15] Speaker B: Happy Friday, Michelle. How are you? [00:00:17] Speaker A: Good. I like singing to you. It's fun. It's like. It's probably like people are like, she's such. She's so dorky, but it just makes me happy to be sing songy when I talk to you. I don't know why. I love it. Good. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Hey, speaking of sing song, because I know you used to do that with underrupt and tuck. You've got a new co host. [00:00:40] Speaker A: I saw that. Yeah. So yesterday I teased out just a little audiogram. Like, does anybody recognize her voice? And, yeah, samanaser from Yoast is partnering with me on the podcast, but also the project as a whole. And what that means is that we don't have to look for sponsorship anymore because Yoast is sponsoring her time with the project, and so I don't have to worry about paying my co star. My co star. Did you just hear me make myself a celebrity, my co host for their time? Because Yost believes strongly enough in the underrepresented in tech project that they want her to use her work time during the week to do the work that needs to be done within it. So, so much pressure gone for fundraising. I hate asking people for money. I really do. And I would so much rather this project lived on its own than had to survive on people's money. Especially, I will say that we were very careful about sponsors we would bring in, so nobody was spending money to try to look like they were allies. Right? [00:01:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:51] Speaker A: I have to vet that anymore. I don't have to second guess anymore. I don't have to do any of those things. So thank you for the congratulations, because I'm very excited about the work that we're going to continue to do that Allie and I started. Yeah. [00:02:01] Speaker B: That's awesome. Yeah, I saw the news and I. We talked before. Who's listening and watching? And I forgot to mention it, but it feels like a great thing to, like, segue into our conversation. Yeah, it's so great because I know it was probably just a little discombobulating when Allie decided to step down and the fact that you're still committed to it and that you found someone who just. It's just like, ah, it's like a relief. It's just like the puzzle pieces fit. Next step of the journey is on its way. [00:02:35] Speaker A: That's so exciting. Yeah, exactly. Thank you. Yeah. And, you know, it's funny because Allie gave me plenty of time, right, to think about it. She let me know in October. So it wasn't like she sprung it on me, and we worked forward with a plan for how we would, you know, transition her out. And I was like, and I'm just going to pick it up in January. We'll just keep going. And, and I will look for a co host kind of thing. And I'll be honest with you, like, I couldn't just pick it up and run. I needed a little bit of a sabbatical from it to, first of all, to rest because, like, taking Allie used to do all of the production work on it. So it wasn't just showing up and recording and, you know, paying attention to the website, it was now taking on all of the work and the responsibility in that meantime. So I did record four episodes, which I put out over the last couple weeks, but it gave me time to kind of, like, rest, think, and move forward. And then when I asked Zama, she really, she cried. She was so happy and so excited. She's like, I don't care if I have to get up at 03:00 a.m., like, no, I'm never going to ask you to get up at 03:00 a.m. So we will find times that work for both of us to record and to get together. But, yeah, it was just, it's when things are right, it just feels good. They just. When Allie and I started it, it was right. It felt so good, and it was. It felt effortless, even though it was work. Don't get me wrong, it was work. But the, but the camaraderie, the working together was always effortless. And then when she decided she needed to move on to other things, it didn't upset me because I want her to be successful in what she does, but I also couldn't just do it by myself, right. And be looking for a guest every week and all of that on top of all the other podcasts and other things that I do. And so to bring in a partner that can have these conversations on a regular basis, we can bring in, you know, guests and things like that. Like, it's, it's just, it's the perfect fit. So, yeah, thanks. Like, you and I, we're never bringing guests in here. This is our time. This is not that kind of show. But, and I love our time. Like, I swear to you, I would record this and I would put it out every week. I would do, because I do the production on this, right? I know you would if you need it. If I needed you to, but I just take it. I run with it. I do all the production. You do all the write up, which is, like, it takes my brain. Like, I could do the production ten times as long as it took if I needed to. If you could just do the write up, which is awesome. [00:04:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:58] Speaker A: I just, for some reason, can't get my head around it. But, yeah, it's like, I would continue to produce this podcast if nobody ever watched or listened to it, because that's how much I enjoyed having this record of our time together. It's pretty cool. [00:05:12] Speaker B: Yeah, it's gonna be really cool in five years to look back. [00:05:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Not to get, like, macabre or anything about it, but, like, when I lost my dad a few years ago, like, I found I haven't. I haven't listened to them yet because I don't want to cry, but I found that my dad was on some podcasts about his industry. Boring as hell because it's, like, food processing. Like, the food processing industry. But I will listen to them just to hear his voice, because I don't have his voice anywhere. Right. And this podcast that you and I have, I have a ton of podcasts, don't get me wrong, where my daughter could hear my voice for eternity, but this one that you and I do is speaking from our hearts. And someday when I'm gone, she'll. She'll listen to these, I hope, and be like, my mom really had some. Some really ideas, some good ideas, and she had good friends, and your daughter will do the same, and Max will do the same. So, yeah, it's kind of fun. [00:06:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's great. I have. I'm working on some content for the day job, and I'm borrowing some from some of my husband's work for, like, the next big thing that I'm working on. And so I'm watching. He never wrote it down. It's, like, videos. And so I'm watching some old videos of him. Like, they're old, old videos, too. Like, they're kind of grainy and everything. I'm watching them, and I'm like, oh, man, it just takes. It's hard. Philod, he's still here, and. [00:06:36] Speaker A: Yeah, but life is different. [00:06:38] Speaker B: It's different. He's not that guy anymore, you know? And so it's. It's still hard. He's happy, though. I'm not right now. He's. Sex and the City just showed up on Netflix, and so I just like, oh, yeah, I know that it's good, you know, I know it's not going to be traumatic for him, and there's a little HBO nudity in it that he'll enjoy. And so I've been putting that on for him. It is so hard. I go in there, I bring him, like, a plate of food, and then it's just like, tv, and I'm like, I. [00:07:07] Speaker A: Stuff to do. [00:07:08] Speaker B: I cannot watch this. Oh, my gosh. I need to go back and watch sex and we'll watch it all again. But he's so happy, you know? [00:07:15] Speaker A: I love it. All of Carrie's. Can I tell you what I've been binging this week? You are going to laugh. What? The love boat. [00:07:29] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. I watched a few episodes, and it's just like. I mean, that was a little kid, right? [00:07:36] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. It was in the seventies that show was on, so, like, we were children, but oh, my gosh. And the acting is so terrible, and the storylines are so terrible. And, like, every night I'm just, like, eating my dinner, like, watching two or three more episodes. It's not even, like, letterbox. It's like the skinny, like the square. Yeah. Program and stuff like that. [00:07:58] Speaker B: So who's some of the guests? Did you have Charo on? [00:08:01] Speaker A: I've seen Charo. I didn't realize Kathy Bates, a really young Kathy Bates, before she was well known, was on an episode yesterday. Steve and Edie Gourmet. You remember them? Gosh. Who else was on it? The very first one was, oh, what's his name? JJ thino might remember him from. Yes. JJ Walker. JJ Walker. Yeah. And like, oh, my gosh, there's so many. Zion Carol was on it, like, all these, like. But the reason I started watching it is I was like, I saw something. I don't know what, like, blew by my. In my vision one day, but I was like, Gavin McLeod. I wonder how old Gavin McLeod is. So I don't remember now what it was, but I looked him up. I was like, hold on a second. How old was he when he was on the love boat? He was like, 42. I am 55. I'm like, oh. So I tweeted and I actually put it on Facebook where I got a lot of attention, like Gen Xers. We are now older than Gavin McLeod was when he played captain stubing. And people are like, how dare you? But it's true. He looks so old. I don't look that old. I'm just saying. I do not look. Doctor. I keep saying doctor. I do not look captain stubing old, even though I've got him by quite a few years. [00:09:20] Speaker B: Wow. [00:09:21] Speaker A: But maybe less. And I'm enjoying it. Yeah. I mean, the one thing you do have to do is you have to swallow past the racism and the misogyny in 719 seventies television. It exists. [00:09:33] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:09:35] Speaker A: So you just have to acknowledge that it's there. You don't agree with it. Yeah, but, but it's gonna be there because that's just what it was. That that's what the time was, like, historical. [00:09:43] Speaker B: It's, it's important. I think it's important. I don't want to white whitewash that. I want, you know, even like some of the old, old cartoons and stuff. Be aware of where, how far we've come. Be aware where we came from, like, being aware that that was accessible, social mores. That's how things were, you know, like. Yeah, I remember my mom. My mom started working when I was, well, it was in the seventies. I was younger. And she'll have stories about, well, I needed to because your dad model, you know, whatever she wanted to, right. But she had to fight for her place in corporate America, doing what she did. And she was like the first woman that did this and first woman that did that in her field, because there was just nobody else doing it. [00:10:27] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:28] Speaker B: Mom stayed home except for, you know. Well, she had me, so keep an eye on your brothers. That was, you know. Yes, I became mom for a while. [00:10:38] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah. The other thing I had forgotten about that show is that the crew of the, of the love boat fell in love with somebody themselves every single week. And it was like, at the end of every episode, it was like the love of their life. Until next week, when it was somebody new that wandered on the ship. I'm like all those, all those lotharios on the love boat. Holy cow. No wonder they called it the love boat. But also, by today's standards of cruise ships, they look like tiny yachts, like the Pacific princess or whatever it was called. It's like, it looks so small by today's, like, cruise ships. I was, like, so funny. Yeah. Anyway, it just made me laugh. Yeah. I don't, I don't know what to. How do we start talking about this? Oh, sex of the city. You brought it up. [00:11:26] Speaker B: I brought it up. You know, it makes me happy when he's happy, you know, when I can. Yeah. Give him. Give him something that at least makes him feel happy for a while. It's not like what I think is going to make him happy. Which is, you know, work hard, do your physical therapy. Stop fighting me, you know. [00:11:46] Speaker A: Oh, Vicki. [00:11:48] Speaker B: Oh, Vicki. [00:11:50] Speaker A: Oh, Vicki. [00:11:52] Speaker B: His other sister is Diane. He calls. He calls Claire our daughter. He calls her Diane sometimes. And so today, this morning, he was like, diane. And I'm like, that's not me this time. [00:12:02] Speaker A: That's you, Claire. You guys should get t shirts that say, like, vicki and Diana. [00:12:09] Speaker B: It's just so funny. He knows Max, though. Max is here. And he's like, yep. He knows exactly who Max is. Max does not get somebody else's name. [00:12:21] Speaker A: Wow. Like, we've talked about before, like, who understands the way the synapses in our brains work and when you've had a stroke, how they try to rewire and pick up information, and it's not always right. Yeah, it's very interesting. [00:12:35] Speaker B: It's interesting. It is very interesting. It is, actually, if you don't judge it and you just kind of, like, go with it, it's kind of interesting. [00:12:42] Speaker A: Fascinating. Yeah. [00:12:44] Speaker B: Yeah. You can start to sort of see how. How much we, as humans are patterns, how we are, you know? Because I'll see, like, oh, yeah, I remember he used to worry about this thing all the time, and then he's asking about this thing, and I'll be like, yeah, okay. But it's really. You just, like, let it go and don't judge it. And it's very interesting. There's a lot of lessons in it. [00:13:08] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I've been. My ex husband's cousin got early, early onset Alzheimer's in her forties, which was just tragic. She's still alive, but literally looks like a shell of a person that you might have once known, kind of thing. And I follow some TikTokers that are caregivers for parents who have front. I'm gonna say it probably, but frontal, like the. What do you call it when people lose their ability to understand? I can't think of the word, because apparently I have it. Dementia, frontorial tips, whatever that word that comes in front of dementia. And how the regression happens and how, like, they'll remember things from early in their life. [00:13:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:53] Speaker A: More than the more recent things, because I guess they have had longer to kind of marinate in your head or whatever causes that. But it is. The brain is just fascinating. [00:14:03] Speaker B: It really is. Yeah. [00:14:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:06] Speaker B: It's funny because he'll remember. He remembers, like, the baseline of everything he remembers is, like, younger days. But then I'll say, do you remember living in Arizona? Doesn't remember that at all. Do you remember going to twisted Italian. Oh, he remembers that restaurant, which only exists in Arizona, so, of course he remembers Arizona. And then I'll say, oh, do you remember? Used to sit on the back patio and, like, he had this, you know, place where he'd sit, and he'd just. He and the dog would sit out in the back patio and just. He'd sit out there for hours and just read books and just loved it. [00:14:46] Speaker A: And maybe he. That maybe he remembers living in Arizona, but it doesn't have that label anymore in his head. [00:14:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Very much so. Yeah. [00:14:57] Speaker A: I've lost a lot of labels, too. [00:14:59] Speaker B: Yeah, labels are kind of limiting. They can be very limiting, right? [00:15:04] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. [00:15:05] Speaker B: It's definitely not. You know, sometimes things come into your life with a message that needs no label, or you need to not label it, because your labels all come from your cognitive biases, right? It comes from what you believe to be true about past experiences. And so then a new experience comes in, and you label it something, and then you immediately start locking that thing into being something that maybe isn't necessarily, you know, it might be a new. Gosh, I had a friend who, a guy, and he had this girl that really, really liked him, but he was so locked into his cognitive bias that he could not see that she really liked him. And it was just like this, unrequited. And he likes her, too, but because he labeled it a certain way, it just didn't work. It never worked out. And then she passed away, and he never, never got a chance to know that this woman really, really liked him. Kind of weird, huh? [00:16:10] Speaker A: It is. It is. But, yeah, we get in our own way a lot of the time because we stick to those biases, like you said. Absolutely. We're complex and yet incredibly simplistic people, and both of those things can exist at the same time, strangely enough. [00:16:29] Speaker B: Yeah. I wonder how many of our cognitive biases get in the way of us allowing the good things in. [00:16:40] Speaker A: I would guess often. I would guess often. I think of. I think of myself. I don't think of myself as a fat woman. I am a fat woman. Right? Like, I get that. And I don't judge myself about it, but I don't put myself in certain situations where I think I'm going to get hurt because of it. So, like, on dating apps, for example, guys will try to match with me on dating apps, and I'll look at him like, oh, he's too good looking, and I'll swipe left, because I don't think that if he knows me, he'll want to. Like, he would want to be with a woman that looks like me or a disabled person, you know, kind of thing. And I'll be like, I don't even give myself a chance to get hurt or not because of experiences in the past that would say that person wouldn't really want you. [00:17:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:26] Speaker A: Damn, this just got deep. [00:17:28] Speaker B: It did. You know, there. There's some. There's a. I don't know if it's Instagram. It's one of those shorts that's going around, and it's this woman who said it's something Claire was telling me about it, and it's about, you never know if you don't try type of thing. And so she just started trying for the impossible. So she applied to Harvard, and she got in, and they told her that she would never get this job in marketing because she didn't have enough qualifications, but she applied anyway, and she got the job, and she kept doing things that she felt that were impossible or that other people were telling her that were impossible, just kind of like these Hail Mary passes in life just to see what would happen. And she got into Harvard, and she got the job. She got all the things that she never thought were possible, that she never thought she was good enough to have. We stop ourselves so much in. I mean, I know I do. I know I have confidence issues, and, like, people will come in and say, well, why aren't you being bold about this? And I'll be like, you're right, so I'm not being bold about this. [00:18:33] Speaker A: Damn it. [00:18:35] Speaker B: What is wrong with me? Like, why don't. What do you talk to me about what you see that I don't see in myself, you know? And I think I was talking to a friend of mine who's like, everyone. Everyone has a hard time with confidence, and. [00:18:52] Speaker A: It boils down to the fear of rejection. Right. As human beings, like, one of the worst things that could happen is that people don't want or like us. Whether that's in a professional setting, whether that's in a personal setting, family settings, it really comes down to, I don't want people to not like me. I don't want people to. If it's a if. Like, on dating apps, when it's a potential, like, love interest, I don't want to get hurt by that person. You don't apply for jobs that you think you won't, that you don't have a stand a chance in hell, because I don't want the rejection letter that comes from that. I don't submit a man. I mean, I'm not talking about me in particular, but don't submit a manuscript because I'm afraid that the publishing company will say it's not good enough after you've put a full year of writing into it or applying to speak at word camp Europe or us, like one of the big. Or even just a local camp, because you're afraid. Some people are afraid they'll get it and then they'll have to stand on stage. But. But mostly it's that you're afraid that of the rejection, and rejection hurts, and we don't like to be hurt. [00:19:57] Speaker B: Right. Right. [00:20:00] Speaker A: I mean, that's my two cent anyway. Maybe that's just my brain. [00:20:03] Speaker B: Well, I think. I think a lot of times people try to be something so that. Let's say, yes, sorry, texts coming in from people who don't matter go away. [00:20:17] Speaker A: Rejection feels good on this side. Right? [00:20:22] Speaker B: So let's take that applying for a wordcamp, for an example. So, you see, I know because I've applied to many wordcamps, you see all these people who are having speakers before and the topics that they've done and, okay, that person got accepted. And so then you try to be more like this thing that you think is acceptable, and then you don't get accepted. And you tried so hard to be this thing, and you tried so hard to go outside and find this thing and be more of that and take your puzzle piece of who you really are and turn it into something else, and that's. You got rejected, but you didn't get rejected. That imaginal thing that you created, that you were doing so that you wouldn't get rejected, that got rejected, but you didn't even try to put you out there. [00:21:12] Speaker A: Right? [00:21:13] Speaker B: I'm not saying you, but I'm saying no. [00:21:14] Speaker A: No, in general. Like the generic you. [00:21:18] Speaker B: Me, actually, I do something. I do something like that where I try to, you know, twist and turn and contort myself into being this acceptable thing, and then that gets rejected. Well, that was never really me because I didn't really go leaning in with who I really am. And a lot of times people are leaning in with the part of themselves that they don't like. They don't even really know who they are. They haven't really figured out that authentic self within that stands without a past, without a future, just stands in the present moment of all that is. And here I am. Take me or leave me. And if you reject me, I just know that it doesn't belong here because I know who I am and, like, leaning into a word camp talk with that. I don't think there's any way you can get rejected that way because you're so authentic. There's so much power to that. It's something that is. It's something that has no competition. It's something that has no comparison, because you're not trying to be. I'm not trying to be, you know, Michelle Frechette 2.0. I'm not trying to copy what you're doing. I'm being the best me that I can be, and there's no comparison to that. [00:22:37] Speaker A: Yeah? [00:22:37] Speaker B: How's that? [00:22:38] Speaker A: I love it. And it's true. It's 100% true. And you reminded me of a book. I don't have it anymore on my shelf, and I don't think it exists digitally. So if somebody wants to go find this book, you'll have to probably go on eBay to find it, because I don't even think it's in print anymore. But there's a book called go for no. And the idea is it's about sales, right? And it's like, you try to get 20 people to say no today, because if you get 20 people to say no, you might get one that says yes. But if you don't go after those 20 people, you won't get anybody, right. And that's kind of how I think about applying for word camps now, right? Like, I go for now. Like, I applied work camp Europe. I did not get selected two years running. And I'm like, okay, maybe. Maybe they don't like me. That's fine, whatever. Or maybe by talk time, those talk topics just didn't fit in their vision for their wordcamp. And maybe I should think about that next year and think of a different avenue to go down. Right? Yeah. And, like, we've got just a couple weeks left, so we can apply to speak at work camp us this year. And I was trying to think of, like, what should I talk about? And because I talk a lot about diversity and inclusion a lot, and I'm thinking people are probably tired of hearing me talk about that. And I was talking to somebody today from the LGBTQ community who said, you need to continue to shout that message because there are those of us in the community that need you to do that for us. And I thought, okay, well, I'm going to submit a talk that has something to do with diversity and equity and inclusion and belonging because the message hasn't been heard enough for people to internalize it. So find a different way to say it. So it's not just saying the same thing at every word camp, but. And focus on it in a different direction. But I'm gonna go for no on that, see what happens. So, yeah, this is, this isn't at all what we said we were gonna talk about today. I love it. [00:24:37] Speaker B: No, but I love it when serendipitous things like that happen and it just kind of like, yeah. You know, yeah. [00:24:45] Speaker A: And you and I never have to force, we never have to force the conversation. We never sit here looking at each other like, well, we're going to have to edit those two minutes of silence out. [00:24:54] Speaker B: There have been a few times where I've been like, oh, man, I wish I did not say that. [00:24:59] Speaker A: But same, same. [00:25:00] Speaker B: I know. I know when those moments are, but. [00:25:02] Speaker A: Do you exactly know? [00:25:05] Speaker B: So it's like, I'll just, whatever. [00:25:08] Speaker A: Find the Easter egg. We dare you to find the Easter egg in every episode. Yes. Embarrass me. [00:25:13] Speaker B: Go for it. [00:25:14] Speaker A: I dare you to. Oh, anyway, so the message I'm going to take away this week from talking to you is just go for it authentically, as me, not what other people say I should be, not what I think I should be in other people's eyes, but just put myself out there authentically. And if it doesn't get picked up, if that talk doesn't get picked up, if that guy doesn't like me, just move on because it doesn't matter. [00:25:44] Speaker B: It really doesn't. But guess what? You're the only, you. You're the only person you've had to live with your entire life. You're the only person that you will continue to live with. Might as well get to know who that person really is and let them. [00:25:59] Speaker A: Shine and learn to like her. [00:26:02] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Or maybe even love her. [00:26:06] Speaker A: Imagine. Oh, we hope you all love yourselves and like yourselves and live your authentic journeys. And if you need somebody to slap you upside the head so that you start, we're happy to pull out the book and smack you. No, I'm kidding. But we hope you've taken something away from this, too. Who knows what we're going to talk about next week. It'll be whatever's on our heart. We hope you'll come along for the ride and we hope you have just a great week. And I don't know what else to say. So see you next week. Bye. This has been WP. Motivate with Kathy Zant and Michelle freshette to learn more or to sponsor us. Go to wpmotivate.